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	<title>Comments on: Clean Week</title>
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	<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 10:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Square Zero &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Long and Sustained Effort</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-7727</link>
		<dc:creator>Square Zero &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Long and Sustained Effort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-7727</guid>
		<description>[...] We are now in the second week of the Great Fast. I wrote several posts about the Fast last year, but as yet I don&#8217;t feel called to write much about it this year. However, I do want to address the question of whether one ought to fast on Sundays during Lent. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] We are now in the second week of the Great Fast. I wrote several posts about the Fast last year, but as yet I don&#8217;t feel called to write much about it this year. However, I do want to address the question of whether one ought to fast on Sundays during Lent. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Brandt</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Brandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-72</guid>
		<description>I would be honored if you were to link to my weblog.  Enjoy the Canon; it is beautiful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be honored if you were to link to my weblog.  Enjoy the Canon; it is beautiful.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 05:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-71</guid>
		<description>Bernard—I just downloaded the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete—101 pages! I'll browse through it and print out the pages that don't have already familiar tones. I was very disappointed to have to miss that liturgy last year and I'm determined to make it this year.

Yes, feel free to link to Square Zero; I'd like to link back to Pauca Lux ex Oriente, too, if that's all right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bernard—I just downloaded the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete—101 pages! I&#8217;ll browse through it and print out the pages that don&#8217;t have already familiar tones. I was very disappointed to have to miss that liturgy last year and I&#8217;m determined to make it this year.</p>
<p>Yes, feel free to link to Square Zero; I&#8217;d like to link back to Pauca Lux ex Oriente, too, if that&#8217;s all right.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Brandt</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Brandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-67</guid>
		<description>Glad to see that you are taking the lenten journey seriously, and cautiously.  I think Schememann's book is wonderful, in that it gives the Orthodox view of lent as both a journey and a "bright sorrow"  Glad to see that you are using it.

If I may make a suggestion, you may want to look at www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org and get their copy of the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete.  That is a beautiful Lenten devotion, and the carpatho-rusyn chants used in it are wonderful.  If you can also get the CD, that would be marvelous.

The sound clips of St. Romanos the Melodist Choir are great, and I am in the process of transcribing the melody for "Let all mortal flesh keep silent" into English.  Hopefully it  will be ready for Great and Holy Saturday.

Great weblog, by the bye.  May I have your permission to link my weblog to it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to see that you are taking the lenten journey seriously, and cautiously.  I think Schememann&#8217;s book is wonderful, in that it gives the Orthodox view of lent as both a journey and a &#8220;bright sorrow&#8221;  Glad to see that you are using it.</p>
<p>If I may make a suggestion, you may want to look at <a href="http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org</a> and get their copy of the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete.  That is a beautiful Lenten devotion, and the carpatho-rusyn chants used in it are wonderful.  If you can also get the CD, that would be marvelous.</p>
<p>The sound clips of St. Romanos the Melodist Choir are great, and I am in the process of transcribing the melody for &#8220;Let all mortal flesh keep silent&#8221; into English.  Hopefully it  will be ready for Great and Holy Saturday.</p>
<p>Great weblog, by the bye.  May I have your permission to link my weblog to it?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-65</guid>
		<description>Bernard&#8212;Thanks a million for the links, and sorry about the moderation; without that, this blog would be awash in casino and viargra spam (all posts with more than two URLs are moderated). I love the "organized religion" line too—I'm going to steal that one.

I should confess that I was being a bit glib when I used the phrase "severe gastroinstinal distress week." It's not as bad as all that, though the body certainly does go through a transition withdrawing from animal products. My only real trouble in the first week was the fact that my anniversary fell on Tuesday, and so I did not fast during dinner with my wife—the meat and ice cream were rather shocking to my system!

This is my second year doing the meat and dairy fast during Lent, modified from time to time when necessary (for example, last Great and Holy Week I got a bad cold and had to eat eggs to keep up strength). I've also done the other fasting periods, though much more modestly (for example, during Philip's Fast, I fasted from meat Monday through Friday and also from dairy Monday, Wednesday and Friday—this broken up by the several Feasts during that season).

So I'm not a complete novice, but I do have a great deal to learn, so I appreciate your comments and the recommendation of the Kallistos Ware book, which I will hunt down. Have you read Schmemann's book, &lt;cite&gt;Great Lent: Journey to Pascha&lt;/cite&gt;? I made reference to it in my recent &lt;a href="http://squarezero.org/2006-0310/a-bit-slow-on-fasting/" rel="nofollow"&gt;post on fasting&lt;/a&gt;.

On chant, last week I discovered an amazing CD from a the St. Romanos the Melodist Choir at the Byzantine Catholic seminary in Slovakia, &lt;cite&gt;Pane &lt;/cite&gt;. My understanding is that it is not yet available in the U.S., but you can hear some clips of that choir &lt;a href="http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/eng/music.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks again for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bernard&mdash;Thanks a million for the links, and sorry about the moderation; without that, this blog would be awash in casino and viargra spam (all posts with more than two URLs are moderated). I love the &#8220;organized religion&#8221; line too—I&#8217;m going to steal that one.</p>
<p>I should confess that I was being a bit glib when I used the phrase &#8220;severe gastroinstinal distress week.&#8221; It&#8217;s not as bad as all that, though the body certainly does go through a transition withdrawing from animal products. My only real trouble in the first week was the fact that my anniversary fell on Tuesday, and so I did not fast during dinner with my wife—the meat and ice cream were rather shocking to my system!</p>
<p>This is my second year doing the meat and dairy fast during Lent, modified from time to time when necessary (for example, last Great and Holy Week I got a bad cold and had to eat eggs to keep up strength). I&#8217;ve also done the other fasting periods, though much more modestly (for example, during Philip&#8217;s Fast, I fasted from meat Monday through Friday and also from dairy Monday, Wednesday and Friday—this broken up by the several Feasts during that season).</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m not a complete novice, but I do have a great deal to learn, so I appreciate your comments and the recommendation of the Kallistos Ware book, which I will hunt down. Have you read Schmemann&#8217;s book, <cite>Great Lent: Journey to Pascha</cite>? I made reference to it in my recent <a href="http://squarezero.org/2006-0310/a-bit-slow-on-fasting/" rel="nofollow">post on fasting</a>.</p>
<p>On chant, last week I discovered an amazing CD from a the St. Romanos the Melodist Choir at the Byzantine Catholic seminary in Slovakia, <cite>Pane </cite>. My understanding is that it is not yet available in the U.S., but you can hear some clips of that choir <a href="http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/eng/music.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks again for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Brandt</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Brandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-64</guid>
		<description>Sheeh!  I leave a comment with all that information a day ago, and it is &lt;i&gt;still&lt;/i&gt; "awaiting moderation"! What's a guy to do?

What &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; am going to do is to give you one more website, which will give you an &lt;i&gt;enormous&lt;/i&gt; amount of information as regards carpatho-rusyn chant, and how to sing it:

http://www.patronagechurch.com/PDF/Prostopinije/prostopinije_index.htm

The main website has midi files and scores for the melodies for all of the tones, and a good number of the special melodies (or &lt;i&gt;podobni&lt;/i&gt; for carpatho-rusyn chant.

But wait, there's more!  The website has just about all of the musical scores (in pdf) of the original musical scores which have preserved all of the carpatho-rusyn chant in slavonic.  

First is the rosetta stone:  The Brown and Blue books of Fr. Andrew Sokol.  Between them, they have most of the chant melodies, with the slavonic in latin script.  One of the two books has a pronunciation guide, so that you can figure out how to pronounce anything in carpatho-rusyn or slavonic in latin script.

Then there is the primary text:  the &lt;i&gt;Tserkovnoye Prostopiniye&lt;/i&gt; of Bokshai and Malinich.  This has just about everything of carpatho-rusyn chant, in slavonic, and in old cyrilic script.  Fortunately, there is also an index which compares the chant described by Fr. Sokol with that of Bokshai.  With a cyrillic guide and Sokol, you can decypher the slavonic in the &lt;i&gt;Prostopinije&lt;/i&gt;.

Finally, there is Papp's &lt;i&gt;Irmologion&lt;/i&gt;, which is an alternate presentation of all the carpatho-rusyn chant.  It is in latin script, and has some variants from Sokol and Bokshai. 

I will note that just about all of the music in these texts can be found recorded in the website that I described in my previous entry.  My print copies of all these set me back a couple of hundred dollars, and nearly two decades to find.  You get them for free, and now

Oh, and if you want to learn stuff about slavonic (grammars, dictionaries, pronunciation and reading guides, etc.), try this:

http://justin.zamora.com/slavonic

When I was starting out with eastern liturgy, music and theology, nearly twenty years ago, I too was frustrated with the fact that the "natives" seemed to be either unable or unwilling to give any information as regards their music.  Since I've been around long enough to earn my "secret Orthodox decoder ring", I would be more than happy to share what little knowledge that I've garnered over the years.

Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheeh!  I leave a comment with all that information a day ago, and it is <i>still</i> &#8220;awaiting moderation&#8221;! What&#8217;s a guy to do?</p>
<p>What <i>I</i> am going to do is to give you one more website, which will give you an <i>enormous</i> amount of information as regards carpatho-rusyn chant, and how to sing it:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.patronagechurch.com/PDF/Prostopinije/prostopinije_index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.patronagechurch.com/PDF/Prostopinije/prostopinije_index.htm</a></p>
<p>The main website has midi files and scores for the melodies for all of the tones, and a good number of the special melodies (or <i>podobni</i> for carpatho-rusyn chant.</p>
<p>But wait, there&#8217;s more!  The website has just about all of the musical scores (in pdf) of the original musical scores which have preserved all of the carpatho-rusyn chant in slavonic.  </p>
<p>First is the rosetta stone:  The Brown and Blue books of Fr. Andrew Sokol.  Between them, they have most of the chant melodies, with the slavonic in latin script.  One of the two books has a pronunciation guide, so that you can figure out how to pronounce anything in carpatho-rusyn or slavonic in latin script.</p>
<p>Then there is the primary text:  the <i>Tserkovnoye Prostopiniye</i> of Bokshai and Malinich.  This has just about everything of carpatho-rusyn chant, in slavonic, and in old cyrilic script.  Fortunately, there is also an index which compares the chant described by Fr. Sokol with that of Bokshai.  With a cyrillic guide and Sokol, you can decypher the slavonic in the <i>Prostopinije</i>.</p>
<p>Finally, there is Papp&#8217;s <i>Irmologion</i>, which is an alternate presentation of all the carpatho-rusyn chant.  It is in latin script, and has some variants from Sokol and Bokshai. </p>
<p>I will note that just about all of the music in these texts can be found recorded in the website that I described in my previous entry.  My print copies of all these set me back a couple of hundred dollars, and nearly two decades to find.  You get them for free, and now</p>
<p>Oh, and if you want to learn stuff about slavonic (grammars, dictionaries, pronunciation and reading guides, etc.), try this:</p>
<p><a href="http://justin.zamora.com/slavonic" rel="nofollow">http://justin.zamora.com/slavonic</a></p>
<p>When I was starting out with eastern liturgy, music and theology, nearly twenty years ago, I too was frustrated with the fact that the &#8220;natives&#8221; seemed to be either unable or unwilling to give any information as regards their music.  Since I&#8217;ve been around long enough to earn my &#8220;secret Orthodox decoder ring&#8221;, I would be more than happy to share what little knowledge that I&#8217;ve garnered over the years.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Brandt</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Brandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-61</guid>
		<description>Welcome, Pardner, to the Eastern Church (Or in other words: "I'm not a member of an &lt;i&gt;organized&lt;/i&gt; religion. . .").

Concerning CarpathoRusyn music, may I recommend www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org?  It has a wealth of the Ruthenian music, in translations and settings that &lt;strike&gt;do not suck&lt;/strike&gt;, er, are more faithful to the original texts and melodies than much of what I've been among the Byzantines.

Concerning learning the tones, may I also suggest this web address:  http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html
It has recordings of all the tones, and a substantial amount of other stuff.  It's in slavonic, but I find it is much easier to learn a melody from a recording than from reading (although I can read music fairly competently).

And when you have learned the carpatho music (which is admittedly, quite lovely) and you are ready to fly with the eagles, may I suggest the original znamenny chant (which was the original from which the carpatho-rusyn developed), and the even older Byzantine Chant (from which znamenny developed)?  You can find a lot of the more original texts together with stuff in English, and lots of sound clips, here:  

http://www.ivanmoody.co.uk/orthodoxliturgylinks03.htm

As regards fasting, may I make several suggestions:

1.  If you are a newcomer, get into it gradually.  Fasting is a discipline, which involves learning.  I've found that learning, particularly of new habits, takes time.  One way of getting into it gradually is to start with the Wednesday and Friday fasts.  Start by putting aside meat for those days.  When you are comfortable with that, start putting aside milk and milk products.  Then do the same with eggs.  If you want to be what my brother-in-law Charlie calls "full-metal Orthodox", then try going without wine and olive oil (or more generally, all alcohol and cooking oil).  Similarly, for the more extended periods of fasting (like Great Lent or the Nativity Fast), for the first year start with meat, etc.  This ain't called "the lenten journey" for nothing.  Take your time.  You'll get there.  Don't hurt yourself on the way.

2.  Realize that Orthodox and Byzantine practice regarding fasting does not so much involve a "giving up", as a "putting aside".  We abstain from meat, milk, etc. not to do ourselves a mischief, but to remember and to be with our ancestors before the Flood who ate only grains, beans, nuts, fruits, and vegetables, with some occasional use of wine and oil.  I recommend that you read Kallistos Ware's &lt;i&gt;The Lenten Triodion&lt;/i&gt;, and especially the prefatory essays, in which (among many other things) he explains a lot about Orthodox fasting.

3.  If while fasting you are suffering protein withdrawal and lower abdominal distress, then to quote the words of Hermione Granger, "you're doing it wrong."  If you do intelligent protein mixing (as I seem to find in all traditional slavic, greek and arabic lenten recipes), you should get sufficient protein.  May I recommend &lt;i&gt;Diet for&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Recipes for a Small Planet&lt;/i&gt;, which gives plenty of helpful advice about mixing grains and beans, and other ways of getting complete proteins.  Finally, I do not find that &lt;i&gt;Beano&lt;/i&gt; is prohibited by any Orthodox or Byzantine fasting regimen.  Take some.  

All that said, welcome to the Eastern Churches, and welcome to Great and Holy Lent.  As them highfalutin' Greeks say:  &lt;i&gt;kalo taxidhi Pascha&lt;/i&gt; - &lt;i&gt;may you have a good journey to Pascha&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, Pardner, to the Eastern Church (Or in other words: &#8220;I&#8217;m not a member of an <i>organized</i> religion. . .&#8221;).</p>
<p>Concerning CarpathoRusyn music, may I recommend <a href="http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org?" rel="nofollow">http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org?</a>  It has a wealth of the Ruthenian music, in translations and settings that <strike>do not suck</strike>, er, are more faithful to the original texts and melodies than much of what I&#8217;ve been among the Byzantines.</p>
<p>Concerning learning the tones, may I also suggest this web address:  <a href="http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html</a><br />
It has recordings of all the tones, and a substantial amount of other stuff.  It&#8217;s in slavonic, but I find it is much easier to learn a melody from a recording than from reading (although I can read music fairly competently).</p>
<p>And when you have learned the carpatho music (which is admittedly, quite lovely) and you are ready to fly with the eagles, may I suggest the original znamenny chant (which was the original from which the carpatho-rusyn developed), and the even older Byzantine Chant (from which znamenny developed)?  You can find a lot of the more original texts together with stuff in English, and lots of sound clips, here:  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ivanmoody.co.uk/orthodoxliturgylinks03.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ivanmoody.co.uk/orthodoxliturgylinks03.htm</a></p>
<p>As regards fasting, may I make several suggestions:</p>
<p>1.  If you are a newcomer, get into it gradually.  Fasting is a discipline, which involves learning.  I&#8217;ve found that learning, particularly of new habits, takes time.  One way of getting into it gradually is to start with the Wednesday and Friday fasts.  Start by putting aside meat for those days.  When you are comfortable with that, start putting aside milk and milk products.  Then do the same with eggs.  If you want to be what my brother-in-law Charlie calls &#8220;full-metal Orthodox&#8221;, then try going without wine and olive oil (or more generally, all alcohol and cooking oil).  Similarly, for the more extended periods of fasting (like Great Lent or the Nativity Fast), for the first year start with meat, etc.  This ain&#8217;t called &#8220;the lenten journey&#8221; for nothing.  Take your time.  You&#8217;ll get there.  Don&#8217;t hurt yourself on the way.</p>
<p>2.  Realize that Orthodox and Byzantine practice regarding fasting does not so much involve a &#8220;giving up&#8221;, as a &#8220;putting aside&#8221;.  We abstain from meat, milk, etc. not to do ourselves a mischief, but to remember and to be with our ancestors before the Flood who ate only grains, beans, nuts, fruits, and vegetables, with some occasional use of wine and oil.  I recommend that you read Kallistos Ware&#8217;s <i>The Lenten Triodion</i>, and especially the prefatory essays, in which (among many other things) he explains a lot about Orthodox fasting.</p>
<p>3.  If while fasting you are suffering protein withdrawal and lower abdominal distress, then to quote the words of Hermione Granger, &#8220;you&#8217;re doing it wrong.&#8221;  If you do intelligent protein mixing (as I seem to find in all traditional slavic, greek and arabic lenten recipes), you should get sufficient protein.  May I recommend <i>Diet for</i> and <i>Recipes for a Small Planet</i>, which gives plenty of helpful advice about mixing grains and beans, and other ways of getting complete proteins.  Finally, I do not find that <i>Beano</i> is prohibited by any Orthodox or Byzantine fasting regimen.  Take some.  </p>
<p>All that said, welcome to the Eastern Churches, and welcome to Great and Holy Lent.  As them highfalutin&#8217; Greeks say:  <i>kalo taxidhi Pascha</i> - <i>may you have a good journey to Pascha</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-47</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Just remember: there’s a reason “Byzantine” means complicated.&lt;/strong&gt;

How could anyone ever forget it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Just remember: there’s a reason “Byzantine” means complicated.</strong></p>
<p>How could anyone ever forget it?</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/clean-week/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2006 20:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0303/clean-week/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>I myself have tried to discern a pattern in the eight tones, both samohlasen and the other sort (whose name I can't remember). I've failed. Perhaps the reason no one can explain the mystery to you is that no one knows why it is that the tones are as they are.

Just remember: there's a reason "Byzantine" means complicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I myself have tried to discern a pattern in the eight tones, both samohlasen and the other sort (whose name I can&#8217;t remember). I&#8217;ve failed. Perhaps the reason no one can explain the mystery to you is that no one knows why it is that the tones are as they are.</p>
<p>Just remember: there&#8217;s a reason &#8220;Byzantine&#8221; means complicated.</p>
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