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	<title>Comments on: A Rocky, Rooty Uphill Climb</title>
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		<title>By: link to the site about tinnitus causes</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-235650</link>
		<dc:creator>link to the site about tinnitus causes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2012 09:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-235650</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.squidoo.com/how-tinnitus-develops&quot; title=&quot;link to the site about tinnitus causes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link to the site about tinnitus causes&lt;/a&gt; ok kelly, as a result of I discovered your amazing thread my brain started questioning imagine if it does not literally function in that manner</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.squidoo.com/how-tinnitus-develops" title="link to the site about tinnitus causes" rel="nofollow">link to the site about tinnitus causes</a> ok kelly, as a result of I discovered your amazing thread my brain started questioning imagine if it does not literally function in that manner</p>
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		<title>By: Square Zero &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Orthodox &#38; Contraception</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>Square Zero &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Orthodox &#38; Contraception</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2006 18:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-434</guid>
		<description>[...] Fortunately, there are smart guys like Karl Schudt out there to help me along. Karl has just followed through on his promise to post a critique of the Meyendorff book cited by Sam and Bethany Torode in their letter explaining why they no longer oppose contraception (which I have addressed in several recent posts). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fortunately, there are smart guys like Karl Schudt out there to help me along. Karl has just followed through on his promise to post a critique of the Meyendorff book cited by Sam and Bethany Torode in their letter explaining why they no longer oppose contraception (which I have addressed in several recent posts). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 21:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-426</guid>
		<description>John, that&#039;s an excellent way of looking at it. Thanks for the insight. The whole &quot;first fruits&quot; concept helps show that abstinence isn&#039;t just a drag, but a meritorious sacrifice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, that&#8217;s an excellent way of looking at it. Thanks for the insight. The whole &#8220;first fruits&#8221; concept helps show that abstinence isn&#8217;t just a drag, but a meritorious sacrifice.</p>
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		<title>By: John Robin</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>John Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 05:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-420</guid>
		<description>The reference to a &quot;crescendo&quot; of desire made me think about the scriptural principle of offering one&#039;s firstfruits to God.  With NFP perhaps it can be said that at times we are asked to manifest our love for God (and spouse) by offering unconsummated our desires when they most loudly demand to be satisfied.  What a sign of contradiction as well as an affirmation of what is truly good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reference to a &#8220;crescendo&#8221; of desire made me think about the scriptural principle of offering one&#8217;s firstfruits to God.  With NFP perhaps it can be said that at times we are asked to manifest our love for God (and spouse) by offering unconsummated our desires when they most loudly demand to be satisfied.  What a sign of contradiction as well as an affirmation of what is truly good!</p>
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		<title>By: Bekah</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator>Bekah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 19:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-414</guid>
		<description>James, 
I can fully commiserate.  We have five, but our youngest is the same age as yours and I&#039;m still nursing the just turned 2 yo.  We&#039;ve struggled with NFP with the last three, and I have had return of fertility anywhere between 5 weeks and 10 months, with very little difference in the way I was nursing.  I&#039;ve found that my biggest indicator for return of fertility is how long the baby is sleeping at night between feedings.  The more sleep, the sooner fertility returns.  Because this young one is a pretty good sleeper, and because there is a clear need for spacing for at least the next 3-4 years, barring a miraculous change in circumstance, we are mostly abstaining.

We conversed a lot about NFP while we were pregnant this last time.  Part of our former difficulty was huge irregularity and variability in my cycles.  The other part was a feeling of guilt I placed on myself for not adequately being able to meet my husbands needs.  He is not one to vocalize that need, really, but I could &#039;feel&#039; it from him.  So, while we were pregnant, I explained my feelings to him, and he&#039;s been great about being content with hugs and kisses.  I know that this is necessary and refuse to feel guilty, and abstinence so far hasn&#039;t been too big a deal.  If I&#039;m unsure, and I have been a lot, we just don&#039;t.  

I think that if we give it long enough, my cycles will eventually become regular again, and it will become easier again.  Between #2 and #3 my signs were much clearer than they have been since.  So, the struggle is just to abstain until then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,<br />
I can fully commiserate.  We have five, but our youngest is the same age as yours and I&#8217;m still nursing the just turned 2 yo.  We&#8217;ve struggled with NFP with the last three, and I have had return of fertility anywhere between 5 weeks and 10 months, with very little difference in the way I was nursing.  I&#8217;ve found that my biggest indicator for return of fertility is how long the baby is sleeping at night between feedings.  The more sleep, the sooner fertility returns.  Because this young one is a pretty good sleeper, and because there is a clear need for spacing for at least the next 3-4 years, barring a miraculous change in circumstance, we are mostly abstaining.</p>
<p>We conversed a lot about NFP while we were pregnant this last time.  Part of our former difficulty was huge irregularity and variability in my cycles.  The other part was a feeling of guilt I placed on myself for not adequately being able to meet my husbands needs.  He is not one to vocalize that need, really, but I could &#8216;feel&#8217; it from him.  So, while we were pregnant, I explained my feelings to him, and he&#8217;s been great about being content with hugs and kisses.  I know that this is necessary and refuse to feel guilty, and abstinence so far hasn&#8217;t been too big a deal.  If I&#8217;m unsure, and I have been a lot, we just don&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>I think that if we give it long enough, my cycles will eventually become regular again, and it will become easier again.  Between #2 and #3 my signs were much clearer than they have been since.  So, the struggle is just to abstain until then.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 16:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-413</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for the reply, April.  Really great to hear from you.  And thanks, too, for your prayers.  We will of course pray for you too.  Your husband has been quite an inspiration to us - and you now as well!  I&#039;m trying to find a way to get Eric over to England to give some talks, at the moment.  If I do - you&#039;ll have to come over for a family holiday.  We promise our fair share of messy house and noisy kids(!) Blessings on you and yours. James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for the reply, April.  Really great to hear from you.  And thanks, too, for your prayers.  We will of course pray for you too.  Your husband has been quite an inspiration to us &#8211; and you now as well!  I&#8217;m trying to find a way to get Eric over to England to give some talks, at the moment.  If I do &#8211; you&#8217;ll have to come over for a family holiday.  We promise our fair share of messy house and noisy kids(!) Blessings on you and yours. James</p>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-411</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 14:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-411</guid>
		<description>Hi, James,

Congratulations on your baby!  I know it seems hard now, but someday, those first three children will be your greatest helpers.  They will be mowing the lawn, doing the dishes, and most importantly, holding the babies.  I find it so satisfying to see my older children caring for their younger siblings, not only because I appreciate the help, but because they do it out of love.  Learning to give of yourself is a more pleasant experience when it&#039;s combined with the natural love you feel toward a young sibling.  

But right now, you&#039;re feeling more desperate, I know.  It&#039;s very labor intensive having three under 4.  I often felt kind of alone, because I found it so hard to get out of the house with all of them that I would just stay home.  But that was not ideal.  What I would suggest is to get out and get together with other families.  This is a great time to make friends with similar families, for the parents and for the children.  The parents bond because of shared experiences, and the children play together and make friendships that will continue on through the years.  

If I had it to do over again, and sometimes I wish I did, I would just try to enjoy it more.  Take it for what it is, and then just dig in and live it.  Try to take them to the park a lot, read to them a lot, play with them a lot.  And hire a babysitter more often, maybe once a week, to get out yourselves and not forget how much you enjoy each other&#039;s company.  Try to find an older sibling from a large family.  They will be desperate for a little pocket money, as my older ones are.

One thing we did, and wish we did more of now, was to keep a journal of cute things the kids did or said when they were little.  Now every once in a while, we read the book together and laugh our heads off.  You&#039;ll never regret that, and it helps to keep things in perspective too.  

One of my friends from way back always said she discovered that the best way to get through those early years was just to invite other families over.  And not to worry about the mess.  Being in someone else&#039;s messy house is somehow so comforting.  Some of our best times were just hanging out at their house or ours, with the kids running wild, babies nursing, toddlers screaming, while we sat around and talked and ate together.  You could say, misery loves company, but really, we had a great time.  Usually the visits ended with somebody&#039;s child melting down and the unlucky mother having to drag, literally, the rest of them to the car, but it was worth it.  


I feel somewhat unqualified to give advice as to how to detect the onset of fertility after breastfeeding.  After my 6x experience, I&#039;ve discovered that I have about a year of infertility after birth.  With my first two, my fertility came back sooner, though, because I was working part time and therefore not breastfeeding around the clock like I do now. 

The time when fertility signs first start to come back is the most confusing.  Basically, there is a kind of ramping up of fertility signs like mucus, and if you&#039;re using temperatures, they can be pretty erratic.  Since your wife&#039;s fertility came back pretty early last time, even with lots of nursing, it probably will again.  Honestly, I would suggest just plain abstinence until her cycles are regular, and then just back to the NFP rules.  

It can be pretty stressful trying to figure out which days are safe, and then wondering if you might be pregnant again.  We plan on doing the same, around the time when I see signs of fertility, just abstaining until my cycles are back.  But by all means, ask around and see if anyone else has better advice.  It&#039;s not easy either way, though.

And remember, this is the way God has given you to grow in holiness.  Patience, fortitude, love, and and lots of other virtues are just right there for the taking!  The suffering will be great, but the joy will be greater!  I&#039;ll pray for you and your wife, and please pray for us too.

April</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, James,</p>
<p>Congratulations on your baby!  I know it seems hard now, but someday, those first three children will be your greatest helpers.  They will be mowing the lawn, doing the dishes, and most importantly, holding the babies.  I find it so satisfying to see my older children caring for their younger siblings, not only because I appreciate the help, but because they do it out of love.  Learning to give of yourself is a more pleasant experience when it&#8217;s combined with the natural love you feel toward a young sibling.  </p>
<p>But right now, you&#8217;re feeling more desperate, I know.  It&#8217;s very labor intensive having three under 4.  I often felt kind of alone, because I found it so hard to get out of the house with all of them that I would just stay home.  But that was not ideal.  What I would suggest is to get out and get together with other families.  This is a great time to make friends with similar families, for the parents and for the children.  The parents bond because of shared experiences, and the children play together and make friendships that will continue on through the years.  </p>
<p>If I had it to do over again, and sometimes I wish I did, I would just try to enjoy it more.  Take it for what it is, and then just dig in and live it.  Try to take them to the park a lot, read to them a lot, play with them a lot.  And hire a babysitter more often, maybe once a week, to get out yourselves and not forget how much you enjoy each other&#8217;s company.  Try to find an older sibling from a large family.  They will be desperate for a little pocket money, as my older ones are.</p>
<p>One thing we did, and wish we did more of now, was to keep a journal of cute things the kids did or said when they were little.  Now every once in a while, we read the book together and laugh our heads off.  You&#8217;ll never regret that, and it helps to keep things in perspective too.  </p>
<p>One of my friends from way back always said she discovered that the best way to get through those early years was just to invite other families over.  And not to worry about the mess.  Being in someone else&#8217;s messy house is somehow so comforting.  Some of our best times were just hanging out at their house or ours, with the kids running wild, babies nursing, toddlers screaming, while we sat around and talked and ate together.  You could say, misery loves company, but really, we had a great time.  Usually the visits ended with somebody&#8217;s child melting down and the unlucky mother having to drag, literally, the rest of them to the car, but it was worth it.  </p>
<p>I feel somewhat unqualified to give advice as to how to detect the onset of fertility after breastfeeding.  After my 6x experience, I&#8217;ve discovered that I have about a year of infertility after birth.  With my first two, my fertility came back sooner, though, because I was working part time and therefore not breastfeeding around the clock like I do now. </p>
<p>The time when fertility signs first start to come back is the most confusing.  Basically, there is a kind of ramping up of fertility signs like mucus, and if you&#8217;re using temperatures, they can be pretty erratic.  Since your wife&#8217;s fertility came back pretty early last time, even with lots of nursing, it probably will again.  Honestly, I would suggest just plain abstinence until her cycles are regular, and then just back to the NFP rules.  </p>
<p>It can be pretty stressful trying to figure out which days are safe, and then wondering if you might be pregnant again.  We plan on doing the same, around the time when I see signs of fertility, just abstaining until my cycles are back.  But by all means, ask around and see if anyone else has better advice.  It&#8217;s not easy either way, though.</p>
<p>And remember, this is the way God has given you to grow in holiness.  Patience, fortitude, love, and and lots of other virtues are just right there for the taking!  The suffering will be great, but the joy will be greater!  I&#8217;ll pray for you and your wife, and please pray for us too.</p>
<p>April</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 12:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-406</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Eric, for your comments...and its particularly great to hear from April! Your comments, April, really struch a chord with me.  Eric will know that we now have three children under three and a half.  (our last was born 12 weeks ago).  It&#039;s quite a stressful time...and so noisy! We don&#039;t know how we&#039;d cope with another one to soon...though would love several more eventually! NFP for us is still a confusing area. We are mainly at sea because we don&#039;t know how to know if my wife&#039;s fertility has returned. She&#039;s fully breastfeeding the baby, and the 1 and half yr old...we co-sleep, everything. Yet, last time, her periods came back after 3 months! Its a very uncertain area, and we just cant make sense of the signs...but feel, right now, another baby would be too much at the moment. a 2 yr gap would be great...but 12 months?? Please add some more comments on how you coped with three little ones...and nay hints you have for detecting early return of fertility while nursing. Its a pretty key topic for us right now. Email me off &#039;blog&#039; if you prefer!  Thanks....and blessings on you and all of yours!  James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Eric, for your comments&#8230;and its particularly great to hear from April! Your comments, April, really struch a chord with me.  Eric will know that we now have three children under three and a half.  (our last was born 12 weeks ago).  It&#8217;s quite a stressful time&#8230;and so noisy! We don&#8217;t know how we&#8217;d cope with another one to soon&#8230;though would love several more eventually! NFP for us is still a confusing area. We are mainly at sea because we don&#8217;t know how to know if my wife&#8217;s fertility has returned. She&#8217;s fully breastfeeding the baby, and the 1 and half yr old&#8230;we co-sleep, everything. Yet, last time, her periods came back after 3 months! Its a very uncertain area, and we just cant make sense of the signs&#8230;but feel, right now, another baby would be too much at the moment. a 2 yr gap would be great&#8230;but 12 months?? Please add some more comments on how you coped with three little ones&#8230;and nay hints you have for detecting early return of fertility while nursing. Its a pretty key topic for us right now. Email me off &#8216;blog&#8217; if you prefer!  Thanks&#8230;.and blessings on you and all of yours!  James</p>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://squarezero.org/2006/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://squarezero.org/2006-0429/a-rocky-rooty-uphill-climb/#comment-389</guid>
		<description>Ah, yes, the desperation of having 3 children under 6, or 5, or even 4years and under.  How well I remember it, the feeling that I could not possibly handle any more needy people in my home.  It&#039;s ironic that it drove us to consider NFP, as we blamed the ineffectiveness of contraception to our plight of being weighed down with the burdens of small children.  &quot;We&#039;ll try anything&quot;,  we said to each other, &quot;even if we have to endure the moral teachings of the Catholic Church!&quot;  

Now, 8 or so years later, the dynamics of our family have changed so much that I can look back and smile.  Because things can change and do change so quickly in a family as the children (gasp!) grow up.  Now we have an almost fourteen year old, a twelve year old and a 10 year old to help us with the &quot;little kids&quot;, and that has made all the difference.  

Sure, life still gets crazy, but we have a built in babysitter, and I can go to the store, or the doctor, or a violin lesson, without 3 or 4 small children, a really desperate circumstance at times.
And I&#039;m still young enough to enjoy my freedom, too.

The problem is that there is not enough support for young parents.  I remember people telling me I could be &quot;done&quot; after my fourth child.  I&#039;d done my duty, and I could be free to pursue other more interesting paths.  And then we had the next three children.  Now I find a freedom in having people dismiss me as a religious nut who doesn&#039;t believe in birth control.  I don&#039;t care what they think, I&#039;m too busy raising, and enjoying my kids.

I hope the Torodes will reconsider  their ill-thought decision, and understand the big picture.  I&#039;ll give them a few more years, maybe 8 or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, yes, the desperation of having 3 children under 6, or 5, or even 4years and under.  How well I remember it, the feeling that I could not possibly handle any more needy people in my home.  It&#8217;s ironic that it drove us to consider NFP, as we blamed the ineffectiveness of contraception to our plight of being weighed down with the burdens of small children.  &#8220;We&#8217;ll try anything&#8221;,  we said to each other, &#8220;even if we have to endure the moral teachings of the Catholic Church!&#8221;  </p>
<p>Now, 8 or so years later, the dynamics of our family have changed so much that I can look back and smile.  Because things can change and do change so quickly in a family as the children (gasp!) grow up.  Now we have an almost fourteen year old, a twelve year old and a 10 year old to help us with the &#8220;little kids&#8221;, and that has made all the difference.  </p>
<p>Sure, life still gets crazy, but we have a built in babysitter, and I can go to the store, or the doctor, or a violin lesson, without 3 or 4 small children, a really desperate circumstance at times.<br />
And I&#8217;m still young enough to enjoy my freedom, too.</p>
<p>The problem is that there is not enough support for young parents.  I remember people telling me I could be &#8220;done&#8221; after my fourth child.  I&#8217;d done my duty, and I could be free to pursue other more interesting paths.  And then we had the next three children.  Now I find a freedom in having people dismiss me as a religious nut who doesn&#8217;t believe in birth control.  I don&#8217;t care what they think, I&#8217;m too busy raising, and enjoying my kids.</p>
<p>I hope the Torodes will reconsider  their ill-thought decision, and understand the big picture.  I&#8217;ll give them a few more years, maybe 8 or so.</p>
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